Fling

Podcast

Growth

Brian Fling

• 31 min read

https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/64cad2b8-0f4d-486d-9082-c21604e5763f/episodes/0cca694e-524b-4fc0-9a8a-598b76e6462c/audio/2eae1cee-a511-43cf-91c0-9da440bd890d/default_tc.mp3

In this special 50th episode, Brian and Joe reflect on growth — personal, professional, and creative. They discuss how designers evolve, the complexities of growth ladders, leadership authenticity, the fading era of traditional product design, and what might come next.

EPISODE NOTES

Mentioned

Topics Discussed

  •  Growth ladders: how to define and measure designer growth
  •  Craft vs. Influence vs. Ownership vs. Communication vs. Engagement
  •  Developing fair, non-linear growth frameworks (including a Medium-inspired "Snowflake Tool")
  •  Challenges of upper-level design leadership (craft ≠ promotion criteria)
  •  Managing biases and subjectivity in design career advancement
  •  Importance of presence and communication (even on Slack!)
  •  Transitioning from craft-focused design to diplomacy, storytelling, and team leadership
  •  Reflection on the potential "end of an era" for traditional product design careers
  •  Life reflections: parenting, aging, mortality, and evolving beyond professional identity
  • 🎬 Sneak peek: Next season’s theme — Top 10 Design Films exploration!

Pull Quotes

  • "At the upper levels, it's not about pixels anymore — it's about affecting change within other human beings." — Joe
  • "Presence matters. Even in Slack. It’s visibility, engagement, and political capital." — Brian
  • "We’ve reached the end of something... but the beginning of something else." — Brian
  • "Growth isn’t just learning new tools — it’s learning how to move people and systems." — Joe

📣 Shout-outs

To everyone who has listened across these 50 episodes — thank you for helping us grow. To our future selves: onward to new creative adventures (and maybe even bagel making).

Connect with Joe & Brian

Outro music: Bridge to Hawaii by Tacocat

Transcript

Brian Fling: I'm Brian. And I'm a designer.
Joe Alterio: And I'm Joe, and I'm a designer. Today, we're going to be talking about growth. How do you grow as a designer? How do you grow as a creative? How do we grow as podcast hosts? We'll talk about it. Well, okay, so let me start off by saying congratulations, sir, on 50 episodes.
Brian Fling: Oh, yeah.
Joe Alterio: Yay, us.
Brian Fling: That's awesome. Yay. Yay. Oh, look, hold on.
Joe Alterio: Are we going to become, like a drive pound at 5? Honestly, I'm loving this. You know, it's. It's. It's not. It's not. We don't. We don't do them at as steady a clip as some. Right. There's some people that have, like, 900
Brian Fling: episodes out there, six years to get.
Joe Alterio: I blame Covid. Part of that.
Brian Fling: Yes.
Joe Alterio: But, like, this isn't our job.
Brian Fling: Right.
Joe Alterio: We don't have to do it. We're doing it because it makes us feel good and like a. A project that we do ourselves together that is like something that we like doing. That you continue to do for 50 times. Like that. I think. I think that's impressive.
Brian Fling: I think so, too.
Joe Alterio: I.
Brian Fling: And I was actually thinking about it. So if it takes us six years to do 50 episodes and we do that two more times, we're done. Like, we're retired.
Joe Alterio: 150 episodes, here we come.
Brian Fling: That's right. And then a movie.
Joe Alterio: No, we need to be like the BBC series and like five episodes and you're out over the course of 12 years.
Brian Fling: Right, right.
Joe Alterio: Presents.
Brian Fling: And it's clear to you and I, but maybe not to everybody else. So this is going to be our last episode for a while. We're going to do. This is for season four.
Joe Alterio: Season four.
Brian Fling: Four.
Joe Alterio: Four. Season four. Yeah, totally. The 40s are four.
Brian Fling: Right, right. And we're going to take a break.
Joe Alterio: Take a break. Yep.
Brian Fling: Let everything well up inside. All sorts of new, fresh material.
Joe Alterio: Hopper of complaints. That makes sense. That makes sense. So in spirit of that, you want to talk about how we. How we grow, how we grow as creatives, how we grow as professional designers. I think that's. That's what you said.
Brian Fling: Yeah, I think. Yeah. I think growth is a good topic for us for a couple reasons. I think, you know, any designer I talk to these days, you know, growth is one of the number one topics on their mind. Like, if you're, like, recruiting or interviewing for designers, they want to know, like, what does growth look like for me? And I think there's. Yeah. What I kind of thought about for this One is there's kind of three different levels of growth that we could potentially talk about. One is, you and I both have been managers for a long time, so we can talk about growth ladders and how to grow designers and all that more tactical. Then I think there's also the reason why that's really important is because once you reach a certain level of growth, like where you and I are at, opportunities start to disappear and there's fewer paths forward for what growth looks like. And then I think the other thing is, like, you know, what do we reflect on, especially this season? I think there's been some pretty, you know, dark year. Lots of really interesting topics that we've covered over the last 10 episodes. And what does growth look like as designers? Like, you know, we already did, like, in a future episode, but I was kind of, like, I kind of joked, you know, 50 more, 100 more episodes, and we were done. But are we still going to be doing what we're doing now then? Like you mentioned in the last episode, like, I want to come back to last. That's the big topic, right? Like, yes, let's say that one for last. Let's come back to it. But, you know, is this, Is this a fading career? Like, and, you know, we, We. We joked about, you know, that tweet being like, yeah, anyway, let's. Let's save that one. Put that one back in the chamber. Okay, so let's go back to growth ladders. Okay, so you had a growth ladder at your old role. I don't know if you can talk about it, but you had, like, a pretty amazing.
Joe Alterio: Yeah, I was actually looking for it today, unfortunately, because I'm a moron. I. I didn't copy that part of our notion into my personal notion. So I don't. I didn't have access to it, but I think I remember it well enough. Um, I actually did quite a bit of research on that because at my last role, it was like building a design product team from scratch. And so there was really nothing to work off of. There was nothing to kind of shape. It was like, we're just going to see what happens. And I think what's maybe a little bit different from a lot of other growth ladders for internal product teams and stuff like that is that we were a client services agency. And so we had a lot of different parts of the ladder that were not just about the craft, right? Not just about the. The creation of Figma files or visual designs or, you know, color wheels or something like that, but it was Actually, like, how you. How you interact with clients, how you effect change, managing words and stuff like that. And like, you know, a lot of kind of like, like people stuff. And one of the missions that, that I had when we were. When we were building it was that I really wanted to make it so that people were rewarded who, who had different sets of. Of skills. I think that, and this is certainly, I think a topic that we can. That we can pull apart, because I'm sure you got opinions about this. But, like, the obvious version of a ladder is like, you get better at Figma and you can handle more. You know, first you can handle a sub feature, and then you can handle feature and then you can handle an app. And like, that's the version of getting better at your job. Like, fine, for sure. But especially in that client services world, we actually had, I think it was five different categories. It was. It was craft, it was influence, ownership, communication, and engagement. And so we had these kind of like, five categories and we attempted to build. I don't know if we'll link to this in the show notes, but Medium, when they first started out, they had kind of like a snowflake tool, so that like, almost like. Like if you have ever played Dungeons and Dragons and you're a kid, you have kind of like a bucket of points, and then you're able to kind of like spread the points around different categories. And so we kind of like reverse engineer that. Medium had actually tried to do that as well. We ended up interviewing the engineer who first built this and stuff like that, and we attempted to do it for our own team. It didn't. It didn't really ever get off the ground because the math is fairly complicated if you actually want to make people feel like they're being listened to. So if someone has a. Has a solution around that, please let us know. But the idea of, like, each person having a unique bundle of skills that make up the value of who they are and like a. And like a level four designer over here can look differently than a level four designer over here. Like, maybe the level four designer over here is really, really good at talking to the client and moving the ball forward and kind of like priming apart exactly what the client needs. Whereas the level four designer over here is just like headphones on craft person, and they're doing that. And our intent was that someone shouldn't be punished just because you're good at one part over another part.
Brian Fling: Right, right.
Joe Alterio: And you know where we. That was the intent. Like I said, I don't think we necessarily solved it, but I will make sure we put in the notes the GitHub repo of that original medium Snowflake tool, because it is a super interesting thing, and I would love to see an organization or someone actually make it work.
Brian Fling: It was one of the better ones. I've seen it ask you a couple different questions, and then, like, that's one of the things I liked about. About what you did, is someone would fill out some questions and then it would generate, like, their profile. And what type of chart was that?
Joe Alterio: It was. What do you call that with the wheel chart? Right, the little different pie pieces.
Brian Fling: Yeah, yeah. And so you could kind of see the shape of, like, their skills and strengths.
Joe Alterio: Right. Similar to. Almost like, if you've ever done the Myers Briggs personality thing. It was like that, except the kind of spokes were kind of like different parts of. Of stuff like that. Yeah. And. But, you know, I think that one of the. One of the roadblocks that we ran into when we were building that was that you can make an algorithmic or formulaic kind of math system about kind of like these parts points give you this thing and you level up to this point, stuff like that. But at the end of the day, those points being assigned, those value being assigned are still pretty much still the manager's job. And the manager is, by their very nature, kind of subjective about who is doing that or not doing that. So there still is that kind of human level bias that does kind of occur.
Brian Fling: Right, right. 100%.
Joe Alterio: Yeah.
Brian Fling: Well, yes, I think I've hacked that a little bit or been able to solve that a little bit. And I can't take full credit for this. A manager I had was the one that introduced me to. I think it was Stanford's product design rubric or something. I'm not 100% sure where she got it, but she was the one that introduced me to it. And then I've, like, been refining it over the years, and I can link to the one that I use, but it's really similar to what you mentioned. So you have. Mine's in a grid, so it's less visual than your cool Snowflake, but. But what I do is I set up like a, you know, a board, you know, like figjam, and. And it has all the different competencies in it, which is, you know, craft is number one.
Joe Alterio: Right.
Brian Fling: Design thinking, design leadership. I have show, don't tell. Like, the ability to, like, kind of quickly make ideas tangible. Strategy. Design strategy is a big one. Storytelling. And then Relationship building and then recruiting. And that one's a little bit of a.
Joe Alterio: So, like, like Devrel, like, essentially, like, you want to go out and actually make your. Was it. Was it recruiting for, like, bring people into the team or, like, just like advertising the fact that the work you're doing is important?
Brian Fling: Both. So, like, the level one is ability to communicate the mission, values and work of the design team to external people.
Joe Alterio: Yeah.
Brian Fling: So, you know, I got pushback about that.
Joe Alterio: I thought that was a really important one too. And when we first built that, our ladder, I got pushed back around that as well, because they were like, that doesn't have anything to do with design. I was like, that has everything to do with design. Like, what are you talking? Especially at those higher levels. Yeah, and that's what those higher levels are for.
Brian Fling: Exactly, exactly. It fucks up all of my reports. You're like, I'm a level, you know, 100 on craft. But recruiting, like, yeah, right. But anyway. But I use five different levels, and so each one inside that grid has, like a little bit of description of what it means. And so I put it in figjam and I put little dots for my reports. And every quarter I asked them to update that on each one of those competencies. And so, you know, someone might be, again, they might be like a level four on craft to just impeccable design, but they might be struggling with, like, I don't know, strategy or design leadership. And so after I've worked with them for a while, then I can kind of put in my own dots. I rarely ever do, but I might say, hey. So in some cases, I found that some designers are maybe judging themselves a little too harshly. So that's when I'll put my dots in there and say, actually, I think you're probably more like, here, let's. And let's use that gap as like a conversation point of like, why do you see yourself here and why I see you here? Or. And that could be vice versa. They could over index and say, hey, my craft is a five. And it was like, a five is me. Right. Or is, you know, is so and so.
Joe Alterio: I love that you love yourself that much.
Brian Fling: Right, right. But like, giving them a basis of saying, okay, that means that you are operating at like a principal or like, you know, the top of, you know, the top 1% of designers. Is that actually. Do you really think that's true? And you might have to, like, help them describe what that is. So my.
Joe Alterio: You have guidelines inside of those buckets about, like a top level Craft person is able to do X and Y
Brian Fling: and Z. Yeah, yeah. So for example, I pulled it open so I can actually. And again, I'll share it. But like a level five on craft, like, shares knowledge as a mentor and teacher to the entire team and elevates the entire practice. So they're like a bar raiser or whatever you might want to call it. I don't really get into like the specifics of pixel perfection because, like, if you've got like a UX researcher or a UX designer that's on your team, craft might mean very different things like what you talked about than like someone has more of a UI background.
Joe Alterio: Yep, yep.
Brian Fling: And I think that's really important to share. There's other methods, like the T shape designer. Have you ever heard that one?
Joe Alterio: We researched that one and I forget the reason why we discarded it, but I remember it not being sufficient for our needs. But. So that's, that's great. I think the obvious question is the. I think the unsolved problem for many, many managers and organizations is when someone gets up to that highest level. The, the, the presumptions of what the industry is doing right now. And we've talked about this a hundred million times and we'll talk about 100 million more until we're both fucking bagel bakers or farmers. Is the idea that getting very, very good at the craft, get very good at the pixel pushing is evidence of high level of craft. And I'm gonna suspect, because I was the same way, that I am suspicious of someone viewing that as like, obviously I should be at the top level, but if that's not an indication of the top level, then what is the top level? It starts to get very squishy. And I think that's a little bit where bias, like there's a big bias danger about someone being like, of course I deserve to be a director or principal. And you're like, yeah, you can kick ass making things. But like, when I see you present to people, it's a bumbling show. And like, it's very hard to say that because then there's a lot of, like I said, there's a lot of subjectivity. And like, you know, I think that when you've been in the arena long enough, you just know when someone is good at all those kind of intangible parts, but it's sometimes hard to, to vocalize them. So how do you get around that?
Brian Fling: Yeah, I mean, I wish I had that one hacked.
Joe Alterio: Yeah.
Brian Fling: From what I saw, you know, managing larger teams you know, anything four or lower was kind of in the domain of design leadership. Like if design leadership was like, hey, this person's a four, then they were a four.
Joe Alterio: Right.
Brian Fling: And then anything above that, you know, like a five or I mean, depending like most orgs, I mean Microsoft has whatever, I don't know, 50 levels or 7, but most orgs don't have like, you know, more than like ten or a dozen different levels. Um, I think the most common one I've seen is like seven, you know, VPs and. Yeah, like seven. So anyway, so like, let's just, for the sake of argument, let's just say we're talking about a seven level. You know, seven is VP or CDO type level and one is entry level. So once you get into that five, six, seven realm, you are talking about the impact that you have on people outside of design are going to, or are they're going to have a different rubric and a different, different success criteria, which is in my experience often very poorly defined, of course. And, and so growth becomes very challenging once you get to those upper levels. What's yours?
Joe Alterio: Yeah, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. The, like that, that, that bucket of impact is like, it's so hard to define but like, it's like pornography, you know, when you see it. Like, like there is the. When you see someone moving other people with their decks or with their words or with a convincing argument or even just like, just like getting the team on board an idea and like that stuff is as Is actually exists completely outside of the design tooling space. Yeah, like you can do whatever the fuck you. I don't care what you make your deck in, but like the ability to bring someone along with like, let's completely redesign the home or something like that. And like that is. That is what you're asking with people is, is additional effort. And in some ways you're making their life more of a pain in the ass. And so it gets out of like, this is the right design choice because of X and Y and Z and more like diplomacy. And it's like as much to do with like your external relationships and like whether you've gone out and you've had beers with people and like whether, when you're going into the meeting room together, you slap it on the back and say like, hey, great to see you. And you've already kind of set them up to be receptive ideas. It's all this like, it's psychology. It's how you present it. I mean, I'm Sorry to say. Sometimes it's like how you present yourself physically. Like, there's just a lot of parts, and it's about affecting change within other human beings in the direction you want them to go.
Brian Fling: Yeah.
Joe Alterio: And that is a really weird and squishy thing. And absolutely there is bias involved. And like. Absolutely. Then you start to play into, like, people's natural biases. If there's, you know, there's racism or homophobia and the people that have to kind of deal with that stuff, that is a greater hurdle for them. And there is no way to design a ladder in which that doesn't exist. Which is why, like, HR departments exist. Right. Is that to kind of, like, mitigate that thing? But, like, that is. I think that's a lot of the reason why ladders are. Are such a fraught. It seems like a simple thing, but it's like a very, very landmine thing. Because when you do get upper things, it's really about, like, who deserves to be rewarded, who doesn't deserve to be rewarded. And, you know, we've seen people that have gotten promoted. Maybe they're not the best craftsperson, but they're really, really good. They're just like, jokey and chummy and everyone wants to be around them and they just get. They get promoted because everyone likes them.
Brian Fling: Yep.
Joe Alterio: And like, that shit happens. And like, is it. Is it right? No. But I also. I kind of don't think it's wrong because it. That just pretend that it's only about the actual tactical parts of it is misunderstanding how human beings interact with each other well.
Brian Fling: And I think also how teams have evolved. Right. So as I was thinking about this. This topic, I was like, you know, when you. And we've talked about this in the past, like, when you and I started, it was like trial by fire. Always. Right.
Joe Alterio: Yeah.
Brian Fling: Do good work if you're working. Right. So only good work moved you. It was 100% craft and none of the other things and, you know, speed mattered and, you know, other types of things. But it really was about, like, producing good work. But now I think the team dynamics have changed. You know, that was a little bit more on the agency side. You were back when agencies kind of did much more, you know, 80% of the creative versus now they do, like, 20% of the creative now. I think it's really more about how you're using design to move the team along and it's less about the craft. And, like, you know, I made this observation on Slack, like, you know, three or four different teams I've worked on over the last few years and it's finally dawning on me that presence on Slack or whatever, you know, teams or whatever the hell you're using. But presence matters. Like you responding to shit, even if it's not design related is a huge and it's just visible possibility of like.
Joe Alterio: I will go for you one further and say the. You can tell someone's political capital at an organization by how many emoji the reactions get on, on messages inside of one of these platforms, which is like a really weird and fucked up like animal instinct, peacock bullshit, like real chimp tribe behavior shit. But like you can tell like that is a very, very accurate betrayal of, of power inside of a group.
Brian Fling: Yeah. Yeah. I mean like the last CEO I worked with, you know, he brought this up and which is what made me start to think about it is you know, he was like on all the channels all the time, right? And you know, if he listens to this, he knows I love him. So like he'll recall this conversation. But he was like, he was on the channels all the time. I was like, dude, you don't sleep. He's like, you and I use Slack really differently. I was like, yeah, how if I'm on all the channels and I'm watching everything all the time, when am I ever going to do any deep work? Like I need to be able to switch that shit off and be able to like focus on design too. And it was, it was a real challenge for me to be able to be as present in the, you know, all these async conversations that are happening 24 hours a day, you know, also with a three year old like screaming for attention. So how, you know, how do you do that? And. But then it really occurred to me, I was like, you know, the people I know that have really like maybe underdelivered on work, what I consider under delivered on work, but actually seem to be doing well at a lot of organizations. It was more about their, not the designs that they were bringing to the, to the team. It was the collaboration.
Joe Alterio: Well, I mean that's a little bit not to. I love you but like not to. I think that you have that. Your assumptions that you had a little bit wrong. Like as the design leader, your job is actually not to push work. Your job is to cohese and cheerlead and defend the team, you know? You know, I mean like my last
Brian Fling: role I was more of an ic
Joe Alterio: but yes, I know who you are and I know that you get joy in shipping the Work. And that is actually.
Brian Fling: Yeah.
Joe Alterio: And that is, I mean I have met other people who are the same way and like the reason you get joined that and that you're good at it. Like rather the reason you're good at that, that you get joined it. Right. And so it's like a, it's like a push me, pull you situation and that's wonderful. But the way that modern especially tech companies are, have developed is that that design leadership role is really not about shipping at all. It's about literally, it is literally about being in the slack channels and being like, go team, you're doing awesome today. And like it feels very like fake worky. But that is the expectation now.
Brian Fling: And that's I think the thing I struggle with on that. I hear that point. Like the thing I struggle with is like, how do you bring, how do you bring. Like for me it's important to be authentic. And again it goes back to that, that where I, how I came up. Like, you know, do good work, praise good work. If it's not so great, you know, you should probably call it out. And that's definitely how I started as a design leader. And over time I've been able to develop better skills to be able to deliver hard news designers or basically coach them through bad designs into good designs. But like, but it's hard for me to do that inauthentic, you know, when someone's just doing like the bare minimum and you know, and you're just like, is this really going to get a attaboy today? Like, yeah, different companies have different cultures.
Joe Alterio: But for sure. And I mean that, you know, maybe we can do another episode in the new season about management. You know, I think we've talked about that book Radical Candor before, which is a wonderful. Yeah, but.
Brian Fling: Oh, I was going to mention on the topic of book though, is the visual mba, you know that one?
Joe Alterio: No.
Brian Fling: So what it is called the creative mba, something like that. But they have. That's the other thing that I think is, is really powerful for more executive. It's I think a good book for. I'll put it in the show notes. But it's a good book for designers to read because it's thinking more about like the business and the business like the MBA type of stuff. And like, I think as you think about your own growth as a designer, as you're evolving, it really is trying to say like, okay, as you move up, it's more about impacting the bottom line than it is about the individual, you know, craft assignment, the Closing ticket in Jira, whatever it is. And so that, I thought was a helpful book of helping creatives better understand kind of MBA mindset.
Joe Alterio: Yeah, Well, I mean, the other thing that immediately occurs to me when you were talking is that. Is that with the rise of, obviously, AI tools being more in the mix, those kind of human collaboration skills get even more valuable because the craft part of the human part is being devalued bit by bit every single day. So the joining of the humans is the job at a certain point, and the defending of a certain point of view and the defending of a philosophy and stuff like that, that is the job, I think, probably in the future of design managers.
Brian Fling: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joe Alterio: All right, well, Mr. Mr. Mr. Design Manager, Mr. Senior Designer who's been doing this for a long time, where's your growth? Where you at, man? Where do you see yourself in five years?
Brian Fling: Yeah, I think. I think this season has definitely changed. Well, first of all, I guess the answer to that question is I think, have a learner's mindset. Best type of designers, one that's open to growth and learning new things. I think this season, the topics that we talked about is. I think I am walking away thinking, like, five years is probably all there is left to product design as I
Joe Alterio: currently perceive it, as you. As you perform it now.
Brian Fling: Yeah, yeah. I think it's time to evolve. I think it's time to, like, grow and change. And, you know, like, the stuff that Ethan said earlier about the weird web being dead, that hit me like a bomb. The AI topics that we've had, you know, the future. I think everything we've been. I think, you know, we joke, we kid ourselves through the course of the show about, you know, us being, like, the old white dudes complaining, which we are. I think it's okay. I think. Yeah, Yeah. I think. I think for me, I've been thinking a lot around. I mean, so, you know, 50 episodes. I also turned 50 last month. So, you know, you can't tell by the color of my hair or my lush.
Joe Alterio: You look 22.
Brian Fling: But, you know, realizing, like, okay, well, what is it? You know, for the. For whatever reason, it's kind of a big milestone. And then, I mean, it gets, like, pretty deep. I might post it on LinkedIn, but my. My dad died, like, two weeks before my 50th birthday. So, like, you know, I. In my LinkedIn post for him, I was mentioning, like, you know, he came from an age where, you know, he didn't talk about his shit. He didn't, like, there's no such thing as being an influencer, whatever. And all this. I mean, the guy, like, invented things that are on the moon.
Joe Alterio: Like. Yeah.
Brian Fling: And he was just happy with that.
Joe Alterio: Yes.
Brian Fling: And he didn't, like, tell everybody. He was just, he was, he had personal satisfaction of the things that he did. And I mean, and his greatest joy was, was his kids and his family. Yeah. And, and so I, I, you know, I think about, like, where designs headed and, like, is this really something? Is there more days ahead? And I, I, I really. Coming to the, the, like you comment, you said in the last episode, I think, like, graphic design. I think we're at the end of something. Not, I mean, the beginning of something else. I don't think we really know what that something else is. Are there going to be creatives? Are there going to be people? Like, what's the role of art moving forward in the eye? Like, all those things are unknown, so. But they'll definitely still exist. But I think it's not going to exist like it has for the last six years. We've been like, I think it's just gonna be different.
Joe Alterio: It'll be different. Allow me to also say that part of the. Have you ever read any John Cheever?
Brian Fling: Oh, a little bit, yeah. Okay.
Joe Alterio: Letters. Yeah, yeah, that Seinfeld reference. Okay. A man of culture, I see. But one of his most favorite, favorite, favorite. One of his most famous short stories is called the Swimmer, and it's about a guy who. It's an awesome story. I recommend it heavily. But it's about a guy who kind of like, it's, he's just kind of like swimming in different, in different pools as he wanders around the neighborhood. And eventually, I don't want to spoil it, but it's kind of like a metaphor for larger thing about kind of like aging and getting tired and stuff like that. And it's a very affecting, wonderful story. And one of the reasons why, for me, it's very affecting and wonderful is because it's, it's a meditation on how as you get older and you get used to something, you just get less nimble at it, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Right. Because what we're told is that, like, you know, like Malcolm Gladwell, 10,000 hours, you keep on doing something and then, like, you're really, really good and you're amazing and, like, awesome. And if you allow me, I think one of the things you are vocalizing that you probably already know is that you are less nimble in being able to leap to the next pool. And like, you're really, really good at this pool. You're like, well, we got to change pools, man. But like, this is, I think, the end of the pool. And I think that, like you said, I don't think creativity is going away and stuff like that, but I think that we have reached the end of this pool and, and, and there is a level of grief there. And like, it's okay to have that level of grief because, like, the people that were the practitioners of this pool were really, really good and they put all their, their effort into it and they made amazing work and they influenced millions of people, and we should feel really proud about that. But it is in some ways, like the, it's the, the, the sadness, the melancholy involved in just like the passage of time is that like, no matter how much hard work you do, at the end of the day you are just a person that has just contributed X amount, and then you have to move on. I'm like, brother, I hear you, man. Yeah, I think about that a lot. Like, a lot. Especially with having kids and watching them grow up and stuff like that. And it's like, I don't know, man, just doing good work and like, leaving on the field. Like, that's. That's heavy, dude. That's heavy. Okay, so. So let's say tomorrow UX goes away. What would you do?
Brian Fling: That's a good. That's a good question. It's. It reminds me when I was at speaker dinners and things like that, we used to ask that question quite a bit. Like, if the web didn't exist, what would you do? Yeah, and I thought it was interesting. There was a certain pattern that everyone you ask that question to. I mean, again, they were. Speakers would be in some sort of like, kind of caregiving, you know, they'd be like a massage therapist or psychiatrist or a teacher. Something that's like giving to others. Which I thought was. Was pretty interesting.
Joe Alterio: Designers doing that stuff.
Brian Fling: Yeah, well, I mean, technology is like the early day of technologists. Like, it was, it was interesting.
Joe Alterio: Do you think that that would happen now? If you talk to a bunch of technologists right now? Do you think that would.
Brian Fling: Yeah, I don't think it'd be the same. I don't know what it would be, but I'd be curious to know.
Joe Alterio: Banking.
Brian Fling: Yeah. You know, when we asked Jay. Jay Feinberg that his backup career was accounting.
Joe Alterio: Right.
Brian Fling: Which was a bit of a surprise. Like, I know that's. Yeah.
Joe Alterio: I was like, his music is quite mathematical.
Brian Fling: And I thought I Knew you, But I was like. But it also, I think it goes to say, like, like, do, do you really know some of these people? Like, you know, the, your job is your job. Like so much of like being a designer for me is the whole, you know, I wear the black shirts and I, you know, I, you know, exude the whole designer.
Joe Alterio: Right.
Brian Fling: Or lifestyle. And you know, and I remember when we did the show a while back about, you know, whether I was kind of fed up with design and kind of moving on to something else. Like, you know, for me that's really hard to say. Like, I don't know what else I am, but a designer, I, that's about how I identify. Right.
Joe Alterio: It's very important too. It's defining yourself by your career.
Brian Fling: Right, right. And so now I'm starting to think, okay, well if not that, like, what else would it be?
Joe Alterio: I don't know.
Brian Fling: I really enjoyed teaching. That was fun. What about you?
Joe Alterio: I mean, I love making art, but I don't think I can make, you know, a living doing that in a way that is rational or reasonable, honestly. So I, I help run the, the robotics club at my kids school and before that I was doing. I actually came up teaching animation and stuff like that when I was in my 20s and stuff like that at underserved schools. And I actually think I might like be a teacher. Like honestly, like going into like being like a fourth grade teacher and like, especially like, unfortunately there's a lot of, there's not a ton of like male role models in like public schools a lot of the time. So like going in and like being a guy and like quite frankly being kind of like a masculine presenting guy is kind of like important. That also kind of like communicates like, you know, empathy and love and shit like that. I think I could affect real change there and I think I would really enjoy it. I love being around kids. Like I love being around kids and like, I don't mind the chaos and I think I can kind of like grab them and get their attention like that. So I think of all this advantage tomorrow, I think I'd probably be a teacher just like an elementary school teacher then. What has this podcast taught you? 50 episodes in.
Brian Fling: I really like podcasting with you.
Joe Alterio: I like podcasts with you, Brian.
Brian Fling: I think, I think if it weren't for the show, I probably would have given up or moved on from design a while ago.
Joe Alterio: Really.
Brian Fling: This show and teaching, I think fascinating, invigorated.
Joe Alterio: Wow.
Brian Fling: My love for design.
Joe Alterio: Oh man. Well then total net benefit to humanity that's excellent. I will take that.
Brian Fling: So, you know, I really, I appreciate you and like your counterpoint my. And my. My not mispronunciations of things and recording that for, you know, all time.
Joe Alterio: The Internet will always remember my friend.
Brian Fling: And you driving this season too. Like, you really boosted the shit out of the season. Like, you came up with a plan. You said, like. Yeah, you really. And also stepped up. Well, just with a lot. Ever since Zuzu was born. Like, you took over like a ton of the. The stuff. Thanks, man of the show. So appreciate that.
Joe Alterio: Well, I'm excited for the next season. Do you want me to spill the beans about that idea we had? Are we just gonna wait and we can talk about it later?
Brian Fling: I don't even know what you're about to say next.
Joe Alterio: The thing about the movies, we should watch 10 design movies and then we should. We should. We should like, pull them apart.
Brian Fling: Okay. Love it.
Joe Alterio: Yeah. Awesome. Because, like, there's a ton out there that we can choose from.
Brian Fling: Okay, now I know what you're talking about. You need to do the full pitch. Do the trailer.
Joe Alterio: Yeah, we'll get there. We're gonna. We're gonna talk about design movies. We're gonna talk about the. The. The Brian Eno one that came out. We'll do the F is for fake, but Orson Welles. We'll do all that shit. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be all about app baby and design.
Brian Fling: I love it. Yeah, I love it.
Joe Alterio: Yeah. Well, Brian, happy 50. Oh, what?
Brian Fling: Okay, but wait, you didn't tell, like, what was some of the stuff that you've learned that you've helped. You didn't answer your own question.
Joe Alterio: Okay, all right, I'll answer that question
Brian Fling: and then we'll wrap up.
Joe Alterio: Okay. I think it made me a way better designer, this podcast. A way better designer. I think that my. My strengths and my skills are also my weaknesses and that I. I'm a pretty clever guy and I usually just go with my first instinct. And a lot of the things that we talked about in this podcast have made me, in a good way, question those base instincts and reconsider and go back and kind of think through things again in a better way. And like, I didn't. I didn't go to school for design. You know, everything I've taught has been either like self taught or just like pick up here and there and like YouTube videos and shit like that. And so being around. I mean, I know you make fun of yourself, but you are professorial in a good way. And you have a huge database of knowledge trapped in your brain. And I feel like I. I benefit from just from osmosis. Hearing you talk about things and hearing you mention things and you talk about something that I'll go and look it up later and be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I feel like I have had a. A. A design MBA by podcast that has just made me a better designer and a better tech leader and. And all that stuff. So I think it. And it has made me. It has made me appreciate this role more than I did before, because I came up as, you know, strictly in the kind of art space, illustration space, And I was kind of like, I'll do this to make money. It's a good way to make money. There was money. And I was like, sure, I'll do this. And by doing this podcast and doing the roles that I did, I start to really understand how important, valuable a lot of the stuff we do is for, like, millions of people around the globe. And, like, it's a really. And I don't. I don't sniff at that responsibility. That's like a. That's a deal. And I'm just very appreciative. I'm appreciative of you. I'm appreciative of this podcast. It's a ton of fun. Sometimes it's a pain in the ass to schedule, but it's a ton of fun. We're busy, guys. It's fine.
Brian Fling: I remember the. I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but six or seven years ago, my partner, she got me tickets to the stuff you should know podcast. And as I've said many times on the show, I'm not really an avid podcast listener. And I remember I was getting off the light rail, walking to campus, and I was texting you, because after seeing this packed theater to see these podcasts,
Joe Alterio: I know what we should do.
Brian Fling: I was like, joe and I should do this. We have these. We have so much similarity, but also so many differences to make for an interesting show. And I can't believe it's been six years already.
Joe Alterio: I know. And the other thing, too, is I feel like we've become better friends, and I know more about you now than I have ever known before. And I feel very grateful around that and stuff like that. So, yeah, all super plus net good.
Brian Fling: And just a very intimate confessional that hundreds of other people have it to listen to.
Joe Alterio: Yes, absolutely. But, yeah, very grateful. Happy 50th episodes. Happy 50th birthday.
Brian Fling: Thank you.
Joe Alterio: Whatever you do in the future will be fantastic.
Brian Fling: You're awesome. Yeah, so are you too. Yeah, I think the world will be so I look forward to the next.
Joe Alterio: Me too.
Brian Fling: You can hear all 50 episodes.
Joe Alterio: Yeah.
Brian Fling: On to Designer FM.
Joe Alterio: Yes indeed. And let me just very briefly say that we really appreciate everyone that listens. You guys are awesome. You make it worth it. If you have anything that you have learned from us or anything that is an insight about the past 50 episodes, please don't hesitate to email us at DesignerDesigner FM. We love hearing about everything you have to say and please do. And just one more small pitch for me. I do have a newsletter that I'm trying to get off the ground if you want to go and visit. Goodwork is that would be great. I'll add a link in the show notes but I do, you know, bi weekly musings, comics, links to cool shit. Please do subscribe if you're interested. Thanks so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brian Fling: I mean honestly, I do, I do. We've joked about it before. I do really like I like making bagels.